The Secret Beyond Matter

Mr. Adnan Oktar's Live Conversation with Rabbi Yeshayahu Hakohen Hollander and Rabbi Ben Abrahamson (January 11, 2018)

BÜLENT SEZGİN: Good day, dear viewers. We are beginning ‘Pleasant Conversations’, insha'Allah (God willing). We have highly esteemed guests from Israel. Rabbi Ben Abrahamson and Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander. Welcome.

OKTAR BABUNA: Mr. Adnan Oktar, Rabbi Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander, has the title of "Cohen" that symbolizes his lineage from the Prophet Aaron (pbuh). Apart from his long-term religious education as a Rabbi, he received his education in theoretical physics and he also is a licensed patent attorney. Previously he was responsible of Foreign Affairs in the Sanhedrin Rabbinical Court and acted as the Co-Chair of the Jerusalem Court for Issues of Bnei Noah. He has taught in religious schools as well as Tel Aviv University. ​Currently he responds to questions on Judaism from people around the world. Welcome Rabbi Hollander.

Rabbi Abrahamson is a historian specializing in matters regarding Islam and Judaic law. Since 2004 he has been a consultant to the Jerusalem Rabbinical Courts on matters concerning Islam. As the founder of a research center about Islamic and Jewish history - called “Al Sadiqin”- he researches about the common origin of two religions. Rabbi Abrahamson has published a book called ‘Divine Diversity: An Orthodox Rabbi Engages with Muslims.’ The book also contains conversations with Mr. Adnan Oktar. Rabbi Abrahamson has been working for the last 15 years on Islam to have a respected place in Judaic law. For the last 10 years he has been giving lectures about the role of religion in establishing peace in various countries, including political spaces such as the United Nations, the Israeli Parliament and the House of Lords. Welcome.

ADNAN OKTAR: You honored us with your presence. You made us very happy; it is a great joy for us to see our friends among us. We have been longing to see you. We have great love and respect for you as the descendants of the Prophet Abraham (pbuh). May God bring closer the days when peace will prevail over the world, when God will be the only word spoken by everyone, when the love of God will spread to all around the world. May God let us see those beautiful days as soon as possible.

Your presence made us very happy. We love you dearly. I meant to make a brief introduction but it is more pleasing to listen to you.

RABBI HOLLANDER: Dear Mr. Adnan Oktar, you know, I'm very happy to come. I really didn't want to delay coming this time. It is a very critical time in the world today. You have an important part to play in trying to bring peace. Your activity is very important and I did not want to delay it one day.

ADNAN OKTAR: God reveals in the Qur'an that He will bring the good people, the people with good conscience together no matter the place, that we will be united.

RABBI HOLLANDER: God also says so in the Bible.

ADNAN OKTAR: Masha'Allah, Masha'Allah, Masha'Allah. Both are the words of God. Both are revealed by God. We would like to benefit from your insightful words. We would like to listen to you.

RABBI ABRAHAMSON: As Rabbi Hollander said, it is a crucial time in the world right now, all sorts of different things are happening throughout the world. There is conflict, there is confusion. According to Jewish tradition, before the coming of King Messiah, there will be confusion. People will not know the right way to go, there will be a lot of conflict. Only by turning to God we will have clarity and will be able to know the right way forward. It is true that all the people who believe have to get together, because we are the majority. The people who believe in God are the majority of people in the world. If they would have clarity and trust for each other, we can solve all the problems. It is only, when there is conflict, the believers turn into minority.

ADNAN OKTAR: Insha'Allah. We are in the era that God promised us. God will grant victory to the good people. The good people are powerful right now everywhere around the world. Bad people are suffocating in their own evil. Their own foolishness is causing them trouble. Israel and Turkey will remain friends until the Day of Judgment. No one can deny this. Again, Israel and the Islamic world will remain friends. No one will be able to prevent this until the Day of Judgment. We will not allow satan's schemes to succeed. Satan's tricks and ploys are very foolish and easy to see through. It will be very easy to overcome him.

RABBI ABRAHAMSON: In any time there is a conflict, any time there is tension, all the believers should be seeking clarity to understand what the issues are and to seek peace. We are told over and over again both in the Torah and Muslims are told in the Qur’an that the key for believers is to imitate the characters of the Prophets. To do kindness and compassion like the Prophets did. Anytime there is a conflict, for instance, right now there is tension concerning the matter of Jerusalem, people wouldn't imagine the Prophets getting together and fighting over an issue. It would be unbelievable that such a thing would happen. So we have to imitate the compassion and the kindness of the Prophets who are sent to us.

ADNAN OKTAR: Wonderful. Judaism is the religion of Islam. The faith Muslims are following is also Islam. It is unlawful for the people of the same religion to fight each other.

RABBI HOLLANDER: Haram (unlawful).

ADNAN OKTAR: Yes. Satan wants to eradicate the lineage of the Prophets. It has been trying to accomplish this for a long time . They also wanted to eradicate the lineage of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). This was another scheme hatched by  satan. We will never allow anyone to destroy the lineage of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) nor the lineage of the Prophet Abraham (pbuh). We won't allow this to happen.

In Jerusalem, Muslims, Christians, and Jews will live in peace as brothers and sisters until the Day of Judgment. Palestine declared East Jerusalem as their capital. It is very reasonable that West Jerusalem is Israel’s capital. There is no reason to object to this.

In Psalms, there is a hymn of pilgrimage of David: “I rejoiced with those who said to me, ‘Let us go to the house of the Lord.’ Our feet are standing in your gates, Jerusalem. Jerusalem is built like a city that is closely compacted together. That is where the tribes go up — the tribes of the Lord— to praise the Name of the Lord according to the statute given to Israel. There stand the thrones for judgment, the thrones of the house of David.”

As our Rabbi guests here know better, it is clear that this talks about the period of Moshiach. “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: ‘May those who love you be secure.'” Insha'Allah, may God let Muslims, Christians and Jews live in peace in Jerusalem. May God eradicate sedition. “May there be peace within your walls and security within your citadels.” Insha'Allah, we will rebuild the palace of the Prophet Solomon (pbuh), and may peace reign over there too. “For the sake of my family and friends, I will say, ‘Peace be within you.’ For the sake of the house of the Lord our God, I will seek your prosperity.”

Insha'Allah, we will also rebuild the Temple of the Prophet Solomon there. We will rebuild the palace of the Prophet Solomon as well. The whole world will be talking about their love for God in happiness and joy. No other vain words will come out of people's mouths. Insha'Allah.

The place where Moshiach will appear, that is, reveal himself, is again in Jerusalem.

There is no power in the world that can prevent the coming of Moshiach, the emergence of Mahdi. This is God's commandment and it will definitely happen.

God says in Zechariah 9:10 in the Torah:

“I will take away the chariots and the warhorses” meaning tanks and cannons. '”And the battle bow will be broken,” that is, guns and rifles. “The battle bow will be broken, He (King Messiah, Moshiach)” that is, the Mahdi “will proclaim peace to the nations.” Fighting and wars will cease. “They will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up - the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears.” They will burn the war clubs and spears. That is, they will melt in the fire. “They will use them for fuel... declares the Sovereign Lord.” That is, God made it so in our destiny. This is in Ezekiel 39:9-10. “In the last days”, that is, within the century we are currently in. “Many nations will come. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.” See, people “will beat their swords into plowshares,” the weapons are gone. They will turn weapons used for killing people into plowshares. Arms are eliminated. “Their spears into pruning hooks.” They will turn their weapons into useful tools. That is, they will no longer be weapons that are capable of taking a life. They will be turned into tools to be used in industry and agriculture. “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,” That is, all the wars we see right now will cease. “Nor will they train for war anymore.” As you know, there are military training schools for war all over the world. Training for war will be prohibited, eliminated. “Nor will they train for war anymore.” There are military training camps everywhere. They carry out military exercises. See, “Nor will they train for war anymore.” There will no longer be any training for war. “Everyone will sit under their own vine and under their own fig tree.” That is, everywhere will be covered with green. There will be grapevines and fig trees everywhere. Everyone will sit under those. Is this currently possible in our world? Hardly. But it will happen in the era of the Mahdi, Moshiach. “And no one will make them afraid.” Right now, people intimidate each other. They come up with threats against one another. No one can walk on the street in peace. Who says this? “For the Lord Almighty has spoken.” That is, God says it. This part is from Micah, 4:1 to 4. “Bow and sword and battle, I will abolish from the land.” There will no longer be any battles in the world. “So that all may lie down in safety.” Right now, can people sleep in peace? In many places they can't. You will ‘lie down in safety' God says. See, “So that all may lie down in safety.” This is in Hosea 2:18.

Masha'Allah. It’s the wisdom of God. I have a book named 'LOVE IN THE TORAH'. The printing of the book is completed today and this has occurred with your arrival. This is a great marvel. Here. 'LOVE IN THE TORAH'. This is a very nice book. We will distribute it to young people everywhere.


RABBI ABRAHAMSON: The reason why Jerusalem is so important for the Jewish people is because of what the Prophets did there. The Prophet Solomon (pbuh) built the Temple there. The other Prophets also did great works there, they were teaching. All the time, from when it was built, even from the time of the Prophet David (pbuh), Jerusalem was a place where all people, not just the Children of Israel, but non-Jews too, people from Persia, from Syria, from Arabia were all invited to come to Jerusalem. This is the dream of the Jewish people, to bring back the Jerusalem to the glory of the time of the Prophets. That it should be a city of peace. The word Jerusalem means, ‘The City of 'Shalom', the city of peace. In Hebrew, 'Shalom' has the idea of bringing  opposites together to make peace. You bring things which are opposite, and you bring them together into a whole. That is what the city of Jerusalem is. It is Jewish people's dream that it should be a place of unity, where not just the Children of Israel but all people should come and pray. Sometimes it is painful for us to see the Temple Mount become a place of conflict or fighting. It should be a place of prayer, it should be a place where all people of all nations can come to pray, not for conflict. The Prophet says it should be a House of Prayer for all nations. Even Ezekiel gives a vision of the Third Temple, the Final Temple, which is yet to be built, envisions one where all nations will come. If you look at the verses in Ezekiel, you see that everything that is built on the Temple Mount today could fit into what is there. No changes, maybe a few things could be added, but nothing has to be taken away from what exists on the Temple Mount now to completely fulfill what Ezekiel is talking about.

ADNAN OKTAR: Insha'Allah, we are determined. We will accomplish this within the current century. It will be settled. And we will witness its grandeur.

There is a video about this, can we see it now? There is a model we have prepared for the construction of the Temple of the Prophet Solomon (pbuh) in a way that stays true to the original. Can we watch it?

ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, insha'Allah.

ALKAS ÇAKMAK: Mr. Adnan Oktar, he (Rabbi Abrahamson) said: “As Jewish people, our dream is to make there a special place it once were. That is why we want Jerusalem to be a place where Muslims and all believers can come together.”

ADNAN OKTAR: Indeed. That is God's will. Jerusalem is a place of worship. It is considered holy for all three religions. We want Israel to live in freedom and comfort in the whole region, not only within the boundaries of Israel. They (Jews) can build schools, hospitals and facilities everywhere they can. But we want them to live in happiness and joy. They can come to Harran, they can come to Mecca, Medina, Syria, Iraq, everywhere. With all our heart and soul, we want them to live and worship freely in security and joy all over the region; they can build their synagogues and live alongside us as our brothers and sisters. There is no reason for this not to happen. Satan is actively preventing it. But we will crush satan under our feet. Pope is needlessly afraid of satan. He made a speech. Let's see it.

Pope Francis: Satan is evil. It is not like the fog in Milan. It is not something that spreads, it is A PERSON. I want to say something which I am so sure about, you cannot have a dialogue with satan. If you have a dialogue with satan, you would get lost. Satan is more intelligent than us. He turns you upside down, hypnotizes you and you would get lost.

 Interviewer: Pope Francesco, do you want to say that satan has a name and a last name?

Pope Francis: Yes, I am sure.

ADNAN OKTAR: He is clearly talking about Dajjal, the anti-Moshiach. My opinion is that he can easily be defeated. He is unnecessarily overestimating him. Satan is very foolish and miserable. He is clever but not wise. He is seriously foolish. We will convince the Pope in this regard. He is overestimating him. I'm listening.

ALKAS ÇAKMAK: As you already know master, Rabbi Hollander gave your book to the Pope as a gift.

ADNAN OKTAR: He is needlessly afraid of satan.

He says you gave my book to the Pope as a gift.

OKTAR BABUNA: He also gifted your rosary beads.

ADNAN OKTAR: Thank you, appreciated.

RABBI HOLLANDER: Thank you, in the name of the Pope also. People who watch this, and people in this studio see me smiling and happy, more than I thought I would be. I knew I was coming to see my friend, Adnan Oktar, who I respect and love, and I think is doing great things. But I also met old friends, much older. I heard King David speak. I heard my old friend Prophet Zechariah speak. They are all old friends and they are all a part of me. I want to relate to the problems we are facing. As Rabbi Abrahamson said, when King Solomon built the Temple, in the First Book of Kings, Chapter Eight, he said to what he dedicates the Temple. The Temple was dedicated for all of humanity. This was from the beginning, this was what he had in his mind from the very beginning of the building of the Temple. The Tabernacle was built in the wilderness and was brought to the Holy Land. That was for the Jews. But the Temple was built for all of humanity. When we read the Torah, the First Book of Kings chapter eight, and you will see that this is what he said. This was the beginning and this was the purpose.

ADNAN OKTAR: Masha'Allah, insha'Allah.

RABBI HOLLANDER: We were talking about the certain way we look at the troubles in the world and the connection with satan. Our sages have a very shocking phrase of what satan is. 'Satan is the angel of death and is the evil inclination.' People have evil inclinations and this is what satan is built on. Satan is built on the evil of people. The evil of people can only begin and it only begins when people do not think of God. The solution to the problems of the world are very complex but the source is one, the source is very simple. The source is because people disconnect from God, people only think of themselves and others. And when they don't think of God, they get into trouble.

Some years ago, I was with Rabbi Abrahamson, at the home of Sheikh Tamimi in Hebron. I asked Sheikh Tamimi, what does it say in the Qur'an, you know, about Moses (pbuh)? How does the Torah describe Moses? What is his personality? And it says that Moses was the most humble of all people.


RABBI HOLLANDER: I asked Sheikh Tamimi, how is it possible that Moses (pbuh) was a humble man? How is it possible? Because Moses was victorious against Pharaoh and Egypt, the sea was split, the Torah was given to him. After that Moses was in a lot of wars and won all his battles. How could he be humble? He should have been the most proud of all men. There was no one like him, and since then there hasn't been someone like him. The greatest man, with the greatest achievements, ever.

ADNAN OKTAR: Masha'Allah.

RABBI HOLLANDER: The Torah tells us some stories about Moses (pbuh) as a young man. It tells us that as a baby, he was brought to the house of Pharaoh. But the house of Pharaoh was not a house of compassion; it was a house of strong rule and of slaves. And in this house Moses grew up. And yet when he went out, you see compassion in him: A person being punished, a person being hit, this affects his (Moses’) heart and he does what he does. And the second time also, he tries to escape from Pharaoh, because it does not suit Pharaoh that a member of his household is so compassionate, this is not the way it should be in the household of Pharaoh. So, he escapes and he goes to the land of Midian, there he sees the girls in trouble and he says, 'I will save the girls.' He is compassionate with the girls. Where does this come from? And this compassionate person, later the Moses who we know in the stories of the Bible, it is all explained that Moses was the least haughty of all people.


RABBI HOLLANDER: How can Moses be so not haughty, how can Moses be so full of humility? This is very simple. Moses' relationship was first and foremost to God. Not to other people. First of all he is connected to God. And as a result of that, he is compassionate. And as a result of that, he wants to help people. This is the way to peace. There is one way to peace, it is very simple. And that is, we should all turn to God. Every one of us, Muslim, Christian, Jew, it matters not. God is the Father of us all. And we are all children of God. And if we turn to God, He will help with our relationship with ourselves also. And He will also help with our relationships with other people, also. There will be no war. That is the time of Moshiach when people turn again to God

RABBI ABRAHAMSON: And we won't need the United Nations anymore.

RABBI HOLLANDER: No, we won't need the United Nations anymore.


RABBI HOLLANDER: In one of my first visits to Mr. Adnan Oktar, we went to Bosphorus University. And we came to the meeting about fifteen, twenty minutes before the beginning of the meeting. So, I went to the library. What does one do when one has spare time in a University, so I went to the library. Most of the books were in Turkish, I don't know Turkish. But there was a journal in English. In this journal, it had an article by Katherine Armstrong. And the name of the article was, "Think Again God", "Think Again God", everyone should read it. Probably it is translated into Turkish also. This article said, in the 20th Century, people said God is dead (God is beyond such thoughts), in the 21st Century, she said this is the century of the homo religiosus, the religious person. This is the person who looks towards God. This is our century. Some people are mixed up, they say 'we hear from God', but they look at other people and say 'we want to conquer them'. This is a terrible, silly mistake and as our sages say it comes from their evil inclination. Pride is an evil inclination. One must see always the other as our equal, at least potentially our friend, not our enemy. There is no reason for a person to be the enemy of another person. We all have to serve God, all of us, each in our own way but together; in Jerusalem or wherever. Hopefully this will be soon. And we came to Mr. Adnan Oktar to strengthen him. That this is a message that which he can send out. People know that he is a religious man, and he has the capability of spreading this message throughout the world. And we hope he will do this, with God's help and strength.

ADNAN OKTAR: God brings us together specially. You came here even under the toughest conditions. Your spirituality is indeed instrumental and beneficial in this regard. May God prolong your life, may God grant you good health. May God surround us with His wisdom, may God grant us heaven. May God show us Moshiach on earth as soon as possible. May Moshiach make you and I his students. May God let us build the Temple and the palace of the Prophet Solomon (pbuh). May God grant us those days when we, Israel, all the Arab countries in the region and other countries, will live together as brothers and sisters, without needing visas and passports to travel, under the fig trees and around the vineyards in joy.

May God grant mercy and grace to the 35 -year -old Rabbi Raziel Shevach who was martyred yesterday because he was a believer. He never said that our Prophet (pbuh) lied. May God grant him His mercy in abundance. This is one of satan's ploy; even his car alone was hit by 22 bullets. It is a great tyranny to martyr a pure person in such a perfidious and treacherous way. May God eradicate tyrants from the world. May God show them the true path, if they will not find guidance, may our Lord perish the tyrants, all of them.

RABBI ABRAHAMSON: He was an ambulance driver and also carried out circumcisions, that was his business.

ADNAN OKTAR: This is a great tyranny indeed. Rabbis, religious people are sacred. Synagogues are holy places. God states this clearly in the Qur'an. Our Lord commands us to protect even idolaters when traveling from one place to another. God commands us to protect them with our lives. But those people martyred a Muslim [a believer who surrendered to God’s will] Rabbi. This is a terrible immorality and treachery.

It is a great atrocity, we severely condemn it. We want the murderers to receive the harshest of punishments. This atrocity must be stopped immediately. Satan's negative propaganda in this regard must be stopped. These people are incited by satan's propaganda. That was an attack by satan. In every place we encounter satan, we will crush it with love and knowledge insha'Allah. We love all nations. We love America, Russia, China, all of them. We love their people. Insha'Allah we will bring them together with peace, love and faith.

RABBI ABRAHAMSON: Three days ago, I was driving on the same road the incident happened, it could have happened to me.

ADNAN OKTAR: Nothing can happen to you here, we guarantee it. Anyone that intends to harm you would find us standing against them with law. You are entrusted to us by God. We consider any attack made against you as an attack against us. We would ruin anyone who attempts to harm you. Indeed, with law, justice and knowledge. See, he is a pure person and has a saintly family. He is a good person, I can't understand how they killed him. He has the sweetest children. You can see from his face how loving a person he is. This is a terrible treachery and a manifestation of cowardice; they only targeted this innocent person because they aren't powerful enough to face others. If they had the courage, they could have attacked someone more powerful. But they shake like dogs before them. Right? This was all they could do, attacking an innocent person. Indeed, this makes us quite angry and rightfully so.

May God show us Moshiach as soon as possible. We pray to God yet again for this.

RABBI ABRAHAMSON: In the Torah, all are believers, even if they are not Jewish, but keep the Laws of Noah. So, Muslims are also considered keepers of the Laws of Noah. We are commanded in the Torah to protect them [Muslims] and provide for them just as we protect our own people.

ADNAN OKTAR: Indeed, indeed. When we visit Israel, we feel completely safe. Trusting first to God then to you, we sleep there in peace as if we are in our own houses. We have great love for you; we are ready to help and stand together with you in every situation. Satan wants to eradicate the lineage of the Prophets and Israel too. And in response I said, "If anyone tries to destroy Israel, we will bring the sky down on top of their heads". My response spread to the entire Islamic world. They were asking why I said that. I was telling the truth. We would do it with the strength God grants us, insha'Allah.

You should be at ease, all of us, all the believers should put our minds at ease. This century is our century. You put it very beautifully a while ago. You said: "In the 20th Century, people said God is dead (God is above such thoughts). The 21st Century on the other hand will be the century of believers. ‘Century of believers’ doesn't mean the commandments we receive from God is towards conquering people or the world. It means we will approach them with friendship. All people are our potential friends, not enemies." Such a beautiful speech.

The fact that you are Kohen is a great convenience for us, insha'Allah. When we will be building the Temple of the Prophet Solomon, you will be standing together with us. You will be a pioneer. It will be a great convenience, insha'Allah.

Rabbi Abrahamson also analyzed and found out that I also descended from the lineage of the Kohen. It made me very happy. Because if we work out the connections of the lineage of Hazrat Ali (ra), we see that he descended from the lineage of priests, so we reach the same conclusion.

ADNAN OKTAR: Alright, I thank you very much. You honored us with your presence. You made us very happy. We should meet more frequently. Send my greetings to all our Rabbi acquaintance and to all our friends in Israel. We hope to see you again.

Israel and Turkey are friends and will remain friends until the Day of Judgment. No one could destroy this friendship. Anyone who attempts would be destroyed, God would destroy them.


ADNAN OKTAR: Therefore, President Erdogan or the Turkish government are not against Israel. There are certain misunderstandings. Insha'Allah, we will explain them and these issues will be easily resolved. President Erdogan has respect for all religions. Just recently he opened a Bulgarian church, it is an amazing church. Also he opened amazing synagogues all over Turkey. He will do even more. Insha'Allah. I give my respects and love.

BÜLENT SEZGİN: We are thanking our valuable friends for their participation.


2018-01-26 07:13:52

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