The Secret Beyond Matter

Mr. Adnan Oktar’s live conversation with Mr. Daniel Eisenbud from Jerusalem Post (December 5, 2014)

ADNAN OKTAR: You do us an honor.

ADNAN OKTAR: First please introduce him.

OKTAR BABUNA: Yes. Our guest is Daniel Eisenbud from the Jerusalem Post, Israel’s leadingEnglish-language daily. He concentrates on diplomatic affairs for the paper, as a reporter and columnist. His columns are translated into various languages and read widely across the world. He is also an editor who has won awards from major publishing organs.

ADNAN OKTAR: How is our guest? Are you in good health? Are you pleased to be in Turkey?

DANIEL EISENBUD: Yes, thank you, I’m well and I’m very happy to be here. It’s an honor to be joining you tonight.

ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, it is an honor for us to have you here with us.

DANIEL EISENBUD: Thank you. Thank you so much.

ADNAN OKTAR: Please go ahead. I am listening to you.

DANIEL EISENBUD: As you know, the latest instances of Arab terrorism in Israel include the assassination attempt on Rabbi Yehuda Glick in October, who appeared on your program as well, and the HarNof massacre in Jerusalem last month, during which two Palestinian men butchered four congregants at a synagogue with axes and knives, while praying, while they were wrapped in tefilin. They were basically slaughtered in the synagogue itself. During those attacks they praised Allah. What would you say to them about evoking Allah while murdering innocent men?

ADNAN OKTAR: Murder in the name of Allah is unacceptable. It is a heavy crime that will be punished with eternal hell under Islamic law.

It is not something any rational Muslim could ever do. Only a psychopath, with the soul of a monster, a psychopath or killer, could do that.

For example, I knew that rabbi who came here. He was a fine, loveable man who loved all religions. He was highly respectful toward Islam. He was pure, decent and rational. His murder was a terrible wrongdoing, a violation of good conscience. Such an evil deed toward an unarmed, well-intentioned person is totally unbecoming of Islam.

Let us watch the film clip about him. The film shows what a humane and loving person he was, and the extreme respect he had toward Islam and the Qur’an.


DANIEL EISENBUD: The next question I want to ask you was, as you know, many Muslim terrorists cite the Qur'an as justification for killing Jews. Are there truly any passages within the Qur'an that incite murder against Jews,you know of, or is this a lie that is basically been propagated?

ADNAN OKTAR: They are lying in the name of Allah. I know the Qur’an very well. I have been studying it for years. My colleagues also study it. We study it word for word and letter by letter.No such thing happened in the time of our Prophet (pbuh), nor in the time of the Companions.This system and policy of wrongdoing and cruelty was fabricated subsequently.

DANIEL EISENBUD: What are Muslim children taught?What are radical Muslim children taught about Jews and Jewish history today that creates this mentality, this willingness to dehumanize the Jewish people in general?

ADNAN OKTAR: They have drawn up fabricated hadiths foreign to the Qur’an. Wide-ranging ones. We can see that in Bukhari and in Muslim [hadith collections]. We can also see it in some other religious sources. One of the worst examples is the hadith that says that rocks and trees will tell people there is a Jew hiding behind themand to come and kill him. That is so grave, and in this way such lies and fabricated hadiths are given to the hands of psychopaths as a useful tool. It encourages murder because someone may say that he heard the voices [of trees]. He may say that the rocks or trees told him. That lie and that hadith lays the foundation for a project of utter insanity against women, children and everyone.

DANIEL EISENBUD: These hadiths which you speak of which are basically falsifications of the Qur'an or addendums to the Qur'an that have no merit, they are based on, I think, nothing but hearsay attributed to the Prophet? How they can be eliminated? My understanding there is two million of them? Or more?

ADNAN OKTAR: There are a lot of fabricated hadiths. But Allah says the Qur’an is sufficient. These people say that our Prophet (pbuh) spoke these words that fly in the face of the Qur’an and are diametrically opposed to it. And they have created a system of terrible wrongdoing.

DANIEL EISENBUD: [How they can be eliminated?]

ADNAN OKTAR: That is something Moshiachwill do. It is something the Mahdi (pbuh), Moshiach, will do.

DANIEL EISENBUD: I see. Messiah. So I guess in terms of when the Messiah comes, in the mean time, what steps can be taken on an institutional level to permanently alter the misconception that the Qur'an justifies mass murder, or murder of any kind?

ADNAN OKTAR: I wrote a book called the Bigotry: The Dark Danger. That book describes the errors and sick state of mind of the fanatics, based on clear and explicit evidence and on verses from the Qur’an. Anyone reading that book will acquire quite sufficient information.

DANIEL EISENBUD: What steps can be taken tactically? What can be done to eliminate these fabricated hadiths?

ADNAN OKTAR: We can improve Jewish-Muslim friendship. Jews can come to Turkey. We can all eat and talk together here. They can see how joyful and friendly and brotherly we are. Practical action will be very effective. Friendship is very important.

DANIEL EISENBUD:Agreed.There was a time that there were some accusations about you regarding you being an anti-Semite. Even that you were against the massacre of Jews, the Holocaust. What do you say about it?

ADNAN OKTAR: Such a book did appear under the name of HarunYahya. But when we looked into the authorship, it transpired that someone called NuriÖzbudak had written it. I have never written any such book. I have described in detail, with scientific evidence, how Hitler perpetrated a terrible evil. I also made a documentary film about it. That is scientifically irrefutable. And that wickedness is still going on, it is continuing across the world. Therefore, neither the Holocaust nor the evil perpetrated against the Jews can be denied. This is continuing in a comprehensive and organized manner across the world today. It is a stratagem of satan against the line of the prophets. I oppose that stratagem with all my might. I am one of its most effective opponents. Indeed, I have never heard of anyone else doing it.

DANIEL EISENBUD: Which brings me to my next question. So there was never a time in your life you are in fact anti-Semitic. This is not true?

ADNAN OKTAR: I was once. When I was a child they used to tell us that the Jews made a coffin of steel, that they would put people into it. That coffin was lined with nails. Children’s blood would flow, and they would mix that blood with flour and make bread from it. They said they made people eat that bread. While we were little, we were terrified of the word Jew. When I was little we thought they were terrifying creatures. Then I changed my mind.

DANIEL EISENBUD:Blood libel, I believe it’s called. At what point in your life did you see that this was a lie? This was meant to harm Jewish people? This blood libel?

ADNAN OKTAR: Toward the end of high school.

DANIEL EISENBUD:What happened to make you understand; did you encounter, was there an epiphany, what happened in your life to help you understand that this was not the case? Was it a mentor, was it an independent decision, yourself only?

ADNAN OKTAR:I did research.For instance, I did not even know that the Jews were descended from a prophet.

DANIEL EISENBUD: You did not. That leads me to my next question which is, what are Muslim children being thought today in school about Jews? What is the curriculum say about Jewish people in general in most Muslim schools?

ADNAN OKTAR: To the best of my knowledge they are not taught anything. But they should be. However, I have heard that in the wake of our warnings and advice the government has now taken such a decision. I have heard such activity will take place.



DANIEL EISENBUD:OK: This brings me to a Turkey–Israel relations question; as you know, modern diplomatic relations between Turkey and Israel hit an all-time low in 2010 when Israeli commandos raided a Turkish flotilla that defied an Israeli embargo to deliver humanitarian supplies to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. The Israelis wanted the ship to go to the Ashdod port so they could inspect the goods but the Turkish members of the ship refused and as we know there are I believe nine murders happened there, nine deaths: What’s the current perception of Israelis in Turkey today? And Jews in general?

ADNAN OKTAR: Yes. Sadly, opposition has now reached around 80%. That is tragic. If our Jewish brothers were in close contact with us, we could bring that figure down right away. We really improved Jewish-Turkish brotherhood in the past through our intensive efforts. But now it has fallen back. If we work hard again we can eliminate that negative climate and atmosphere.

DANIEL EISENBUD:How can relations be improved? What steps can be taken to fix this problem? You said there's an 80% opposition level right now. Extraordinarily high; how can we change that?

ADNAN OKTAR: It has happened before. Intensive talks, a climate of friendship and numerous reports about friendship between Turkey and Israel appearing in the press had an immediate impact on public opinion. We can achieve the same results again. It is easily to rectify the negative through the positive and to put it right. But insisting on remaining silent in the face of the negative will just broaden its scope.

DANIEL EISENBUD:But the issue of propaganda is a very important one because ISIS, Hamas, Islamic Jihad for example, numerous terrorist organizations are bombarding Muslim youth, and Muslims in general, but Muslim youth who are the most vulnerable to this narrative with messages of glorification of violence or murder or terrorism and enshrining terrorist as heroes, even after they kill innocent men women and children; treating them as they are the greatest citizens within the community, they've honored the community. How can this phenomenon be countered? How can this social media, this internet phenomenon which is so prevalent right now, [be countered]? How can a man like yourself get in to this and change the narrative for these children? And change the message to fight back?

ADNAN OKTAR: I have considerable influence in Turkey. We may be a small community, but we are highly influential. One of the main reasons why the ISIS mentality never gained any traction in Turkey is my presence and our activity.

DANIEL EISENBUD:But still Turkey is presently considered a gateway to jihadists who hope to join ISIS in Syria and Iraq. How can this be stopped; you know it’s well known that Turkey’s borders are somewhat porous. So, these jihadists, these young people who want to join the fight find away through this very country to kill. What can be done by the Turkish government to stop this phenomenon from happening or from continuing?

ADNAN OKTAR: Turkey is not a good place to try and join ISIS. The police and gendarmes are scrupulous, and Turkish Intelligence is very good. Turkey has a determined anti-terror policy. But Syria is an ideal place for joining ISIS from. Lebanon is ideal. And Iraq. The sea route is open. There are hundreds, thousands of ways to join ISIS. Turkey is the least appropriate route of them all. That is false propaganda.

DANIEL EISENBUD:Why do so many Muslims view Israel as a threat? Israel is a very tiny country. Comparatively, a speck of dust in the world, so small. Why it is such a disproportionate threat to Muslim world at large?

ADNAN OKTAR: That is something that appears in the Torah. And in the hadiths.There will be such aggression against the Jews in the End Times. That is the reason behind Moshiach’s appearance. Moshiach, the Mahdi, will not appear unless there is such an attack on Israel. The Jews will be persecuted all over the world, and there will be an attack on Israel. But with the coming of Moshiach, peace, calm and happiness will descend on the region, and weapons will be eliminated. The bloodshed will cease. Nobody will even be given a nosebleed. Not one drop of blood will be spilled. This is one of the mainfeatures of Moshiach, the Mahdi. Allah is now preparing the ground for Moshiach.

DANIEL EISENBUD:But do you foresee a time in the future, let’s say before Messiah comes, when Palestinians and Jews can co-exist peacefully? Do you think that this could be a reality or anything can be done to make this reality by Messiah coming beforehand?

ADNAN OKTAR: That is impossible. Violence will increase in the world. ISIS’s violence will increase, terror will also increase. Allah wants Moshiach to come, He wants the Mahdi to come. This appears as a very important subject in the Torah and in the hadiths. Allah is currently designing the world with Moshiach, the Mahdi, in mind.

DANIEL EISENBUD:But still you advocate very strongly for co-existence, for peace. Yet you acknowledged that there must be a conflict. So how can you reconcile these two notions which are so different? One is saying there should be peace and you are saying there must be conflict. So how can you have both in a same equation?

ADNAN OKTAR:We will strive for peace. We have an influence, and people who work hard. But the violence cannot cease before the coming of the Mahdi, Moshiach. There is no conflict here, because I am not the Mahdi, I am not Moshiach. This problem will vanish when Moshiachappears. But we must also strive individually. You must also strive. But all our endeavors will not achieve a full resolution, only a partial outcome. The real outcome depends on the coming of Moshiach.

DANIEL EISENBUD:Is there anything Israel can do in the meantime, diplomatically, to improve its image, to humanize Israelis to Muslims. Perhaps create less conflict, less death? Is there anything that can be done in a diplomatic way, something Israel has not done before.

ADNAN OKTAR:A bond of friendship with Turkey is important. Turkey is a key country. Our Jewish brothers should come here. A climate of friendship must be established here. Fine efforts emphasizing our friendship can pay dividends in the same way that we were friends with the Jews in Ottoman times. Even if the results are not absolutely perfect, they will still be very good.

DANIEL EISENBUD:So basically to go about the world, almost a mission to show that Jews are regular people who just want to co-exist. So basically goodwill, you say; Jews need to go to various Muslim countries presumably to show that they are just regular people. I guess that’s the message?

ADNAN OKTAR:Mutually, mutual bonds of friendship between Turkey and Israel. It would be very useful to have symbolic meetings on the subject.

DANIEL EISENBUD:As you know the Israeli parliament right now is in the midst of a crisis due to infighting over Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s handling of a number of issues, including peace negotiations with the Palestinian Authority. Do you think that Netanyahu is a viable partner for peace? Is Abbas or the Palestinian Authority a viable partner for peace? What’s your thought about the whole situation in terms of negotiations?

ADNAN OKTAR:Success will come if Israel keeps bringing up the subject of Moshiach. Israel cannot be happy otherwise. All of Israel must ask Allah for the coming of Moshiach. Moshiachmust be always on the agenda because arms and weapons will vanish when Moshiachcomes. The Torah says so.There will be no bloodshed. There will be peace, and Israel will live at ease in the region. If they ask that happiness from Allah, He will give them that strength, that means. But if they do not ask it from Allah, violence and suffering will grow and grow.

DANIEL EISENBUD:So there are no diplomatic channels, no political channels anymore; that has to be done through the Messiah only?

ADNAN OKTAR: Peace is not possible through diplomatic means. The Torah says nothing about that. There is nothing about it in the hadiths. If religion and Moshiachare regarded as unimportant, Allah will show people what He means through violence. But if people sincerely understand what Allah says, if they trust in Moshiach, in the Mahdi, then there will be peace and tranquility. They have tried the other way. They have tried all diplomatic means, and it is just getting worse. The violence and suffering are getting worse. This is not something that has not been tried but people have failed to grasp that the way out lies with Moshiach.

Even though 1999 and 2012 appear as years of salvation for the Jews in the Torah and they are the years of salvation for Muslims. They need to take that seriously. They must pray to Allah everywhere for the coming of Moshiach. This is the time. All the signs are right. The signs given by the Torah are in place. The state of Israel was founded for Moshiach.Foundation of Israel is a portent of the coming of Moshiach. If a Jew regards these things as unimportant, if a Muslim regards them as unimportant, then violence will grow and grow.

For example, in verse 104 of Surat al-'Isra' Almighty Allah says, “We said to the tribe of Israel after that, ‘Inhabit the land and, when the promise of the hereafter comes, We will produce you as a motley crowd’.”

What is the place for the Jews? Israel. When will it happen? In the End Times. This is also a sign of the coming of the Mahdi. It is a sign of the coming of Moshiach. We are in the time when the Jews will live there in peace and suffering will come to a complete end. That time has come now. But pain and suffering will grow and grow unless people attach due importance to Moshiach.

The founding of the state of Israel is a portent of the coming of Moshiach.

DANIEL EISENBUD:[An] Important question about the Qur’an; as you are aware, the Qur’an has been distorted on a profound scale to be almost a blueprint for war, for violence. If you could speak to Jews how would you describe the true message of the Qur’an and Islam?

ADNAN OKTAR:Look, Allah sets this out with a very short sentence. ‘There is no compulsion in the religion.’ That says it all.

Allah says there is no room for force or violence. He says you cannot compel anyone. Allah wants peace and love and brotherhood from us.

Look, the Book of Zechariah verse9:10 says, “I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the warhorses from Jerusalem,and the battle bow will be broken.” He will take away tanks and other military equipment. Weapons of all kinds will be eliminated. Your King Messiah, Moshiach, will proclaim peace to all the world. That is what the Torah states. That is a 3,000-year pronouncement, and a true pronouncement.And they are fully compatible with the hadiths.

Look at Ezekiel 39:9-10; “Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears.”That is, all kindsof weapons, great and small, will be melted down. They will be used in industry. They will use those weapons as fuel. They will use tank fuel and other fuels or jet bomber fuels for industrial purposes. Those fuels will be used for heating purposes, to make people happy. That is what the Lord says.

Hosea 2:18 says, “Bow and sword and battle I will abolish from the land, so that all may lie down in safety.”From Israel and from other countries. Terror, anarchy and bloodshed will come to an end, in other words. When? In the time of Moshiach. If someone does not believe, then tribulations will come. The Torah says so. If you reject my pronouncements, I will ruin you, it says. Allah threatens Israel and the other countries. “Bow and sword and battleI will abolish from the land, so that all may lie down in safety.” In other words, there will be no more anarchy, terror or conflict. Who will do that, according to the Torah? Moshiach, the Mahdi.

Micah 4:14; “They will beat their swords into plowsharesand their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation,nor will they train for war anymore.”In the last days, the End Times, the present, many nations will come. At the moment all the nations of the world have risen up. People will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. That is, military equipment and weapons will be used in industry instead. Nation will not take up sword against nation. In other words, they will not attack one another. For instance, the Iraq war will end. The war in Syria will end. People will not attack Israel. There will be no more military training, no more military exercises. “Everyone will sit in his own vineyard or under his own fig tree.” There will be vineyards, greenery everywhere. Everyone will sit in their gardens.“Nobody will frighten anyone else.” Many people are currently frightening other people. It is the Lord of all Who says this.” If someone does not believe in Allah, tribulations will follow. He says He will ruin them in the Torah, if they do not believe His words. Micah, 4:14.

DANIEL EISENBUD:One of the major incitements of violence in Israel right now is the claim, primarily from extremist organizations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, that Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque, which is apparently false. But in your opinion can the Third Temple, if the Messiah, comes on the Temple Mount or the noble sanctuary, coexist with the Al Aqsa mosque, is this possible?

ADNAN OKTAR: I have supported that right from the outset, and was the first Muslim to do so. I made moves regarding the building of the Temple of Solomon many years ago. I am striving to that end. I have spoken with my Jewish friends regarding where that might be. Rabbi Glick is a very worthy person, and I discussed it with him. There is a wide tract of land in that area that is ideally suited. There is an empty space between the two mosques.There is also an empty space to the back and front. We will build the temple of Solomon there, insha’Allah.

DANIEL EISENBUD:Furthermore you believe that when the Messiah does comes, he will be accepted both by Muslims and by Jews, correct?

ADNAN OKTAR: Of course. The sacred relics of the Prophet Solomon (pbuh) and the Ark of the Prophet Moses (pbuh) will be found. The Ark of the Covenant will be opened in the presence of Jews, Muslims and Christians. Great things will happen. People should prepare for that.

DANIEL EISENBUD:So ultimately the only solution to this conflict in your opinion is the Messiah, the emergence of the Messiah.

ADNAN OKTAR: According to the Torah, yes. And according to Islam and Christianity as well. But if the world fails to attach due importance to it, Allah will create a hell on earth.

DANIEL EISENBUD: Do you have a prediction perhaps when do you think this will happen, when the Messiah will come? Do you have an idea; will it be in the next 10 years, hundred years, thousand years? When do you believe this will happen?

ADNAN OKTAR: It will end in 10 to 20 years at most. I am speaking from the Torah, and the hadiths, and Christian sources.

DANIEL EISENBUD: And how will this change the way the Middle East’s order is now, how it will change relationships between Jews and Christians and Arabs in Israel, in Jerusalem and throughout the entire Middle East which is now a source of profound conflict?

ADNAN OKTAR: Our Prophet (pbuh) sets that out, and Almighty Allah in the Torah. Everywhere will be a land of milk and honey. The entire Islamic world will accept the coming of Moshiach, the Mahdi, in a chain reaction. The Christian world will also accept him. There will be a climate of great peace and brotherhood. That is described in the Torah with hundreds of pieces of evidence, quite comprehensively. It is described in hundreds of hadiths. But ties to Allah are very important. When people sever their ties to Allah, the world becomes uninhabitable.

Look what it says about Moshiach in Islamic sources, about the Mahdi in theAl-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi 'Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, page 44. That is a highly respected Islamic source.

“Nobody will be woken out of the sleep in the time of the Mahdi(Moshiach) and nobody’s nose will be made to bleed.” Nothing bad will happen, it says.

Bediuzzaman Said Nursi says in the Treatise of Light that the time of the system of the Mahdi has come, SüleymanHilmiTunahanalso says so;MuhammedRaşitErol says so. No scholar disputes it, no Islamic scholar. The matter will end in this century. All Jews are also agreed on the subject. Go and ask the rabbis. They are all certain that Moshiachwill be coming this century. Real rabbis, in other words.

Again, on pages 29 and 48 of theAl-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi 'Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntazar.This is a very worthy source.

“People will gather round the Mahdi like bees around their sovereign.” They will fly to his side, in other words. People will come from all over the world.“HazratMahdi (Moshiach)will fill the world with justice, instead of the anarchy that was there before.” There will be such justice that the sleeper will not be woken. He will be as scrupulous as that; you can’t even imagine war. And not a drop of blood will be spilled. “The world will literally return to the Age of Bliss.” The world will be as it was in the time of our Prophet (pbuh). There will be a huge climate of love, joy and peace and brotherhood, and world will attain tranquility. We are in that time now.

DANIEL EISENBUD:In the meantime, so you agree that Jews must be in Israel, this is part of what has to happen for the Messiah to come. But Palestinians in particular are frequently told propaganda by Hamas and other organizations similar to it that Israelis or Jews have no connection to the land, they have no history there which many Palestinians believe. How do you respond to this when you have so much historical records about Israel, when you hear people say that Jews must leave because they have absolutely no connection?

ADNAN OKTAR:What counts for us is the word of Moshiach, Hazrat Mahdi and the word of Allah in the Qur’an. What Moshiachtells us. They are speaking out of ignorance. Real information is that which stems from the Qur’an. Concise and true information.

DANIEL EISENBUD:So what can be done with these hadiths that create such misinformation, that creates so much conflict and violence? Is there anyway to make the Qur’an the only thing that is read exclusively, and eliminate these hundreds and thousands of hadiths emerged over years?

ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, the book I have written will totally resolve the issue, if people read it carefully.

DANIEL EISENBUD: I hope so. I thank you for your time. It was a pleasure to be with you here and to be in Turkey. Thank you.

ADNAN OKTAR: Thank you. It has been an honor. It delights me to see you and the children of the Prophet Moses here. Please extend my greetings to all my Jewish friends, and my love and respects. I invite them to Turkey. I want the whole world to see that they can live in peace here and to see our friendship.

DANIEL EISENBUD: Of course. I will certainly tell Yehuda Glick you said hello and you sent for him.

ADNAN OKTAR: Yes, I am very fond of him.

DANIEL EISENBUD: He is a good man.

ADNAN OKTAR: Masha'Allah.

2014-12-14 00:53:13

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